Huh? Maybe at this day and age, sure, but liberal means progressive at the time when its ideas were being formulated. They opposed feudalism and monarchies at the time, which are the conservatives at the time.
What is considered conservative today is considered liberal in the past. And what is considered liberal today is considered unthinkable in the past. It just that the Overton window shifted.
Uh, sure, I guess I’ll agree it’s less conservative than feudalism, but I’m not sure what that has to do with whether HP is conservative? It’s not as if the story is about overthrowing a monarchy to establish modern capitalism (a different common story structure with its own problems); it’s about removing all the bad people in positions of authority so that the good people can make society work like it should while changing nothing systemically.
They are, though. Liberal is often used in American politics to imply progressive/leftist, but that’s not what it means. Liberalism is pro- status quo and, like the heroes of HP, supports the idea that our current system would work great if not for the Bad People messing it up.
No, that’s conservatism. Liberalism is pro individual liberties. Which is today’s status quo, and so today liberals are conservative. But it’s not the definition. Which is what you seem to be implying it is with phrases like “by nature”.
Today, we live in a liberal hegemony. So liberals are conservative. At the time of the French revolution, liberals were fighting against absolute monarchy, and were extremely progressive as a result. If we were living under socialism, liberals would be radicals.
As people would say, context is king. So it depends. The OG liberals were anti-status quo and open to radical changes. But now since liberalism has become the status quo, liberals are now the conservatives and some prefer moderated approach, which unfortunately enables fascism. But even so, some liberals still believe in radical changes if push comes to shove.
I’m just not really sure what point you’re trying to make. Why are you bringing up people who have been dead for hundreds of years? Their context was so radically different than anything we have ever or will ever experience that their liberalism is a fundamentally different movement than the liberalism of today.
Yes, but read the last part of my comment. There are still some liberals today who would not be considered conservative. They still believe in liberal democracy, individual freedom and open to revolution if it comes to it, but they are skeptical of economic liberalism. So yes, context still matters, which transcends time and space.
If someone is open to the idea of replacing liberal democracy with a different system, that is them being open to not being a liberal. If they want to replace out current system with an extremely similar system with the hope that it won’t turn out like this again, that’s still conservative at its core.
I agree, but liberalism is by nature conservative.
Can’t deny that
Huh? Maybe at this day and age, sure, but liberal means progressive at the time when its ideas were being formulated. They opposed feudalism and monarchies at the time, which are the conservatives at the time.
What is considered conservative today is considered liberal in the past. And what is considered liberal today is considered unthinkable in the past. It just that the Overton window shifted.
Uh, sure, I guess I’ll agree it’s less conservative than feudalism, but I’m not sure what that has to do with whether HP is conservative? It’s not as if the story is about overthrowing a monarchy to establish modern capitalism (a different common story structure with its own problems); it’s about removing all the bad people in positions of authority so that the good people can make society work like it should while changing nothing systemically.
Okay, fair. But the way your previous comment make it sound like in broad sense liberals are conservatives, which is not really the case.
They are, though. Liberal is often used in American politics to imply progressive/leftist, but that’s not what it means. Liberalism is pro- status quo and, like the heroes of HP, supports the idea that our current system would work great if not for the Bad People messing it up.
No, that’s conservatism. Liberalism is pro individual liberties. Which is today’s status quo, and so today liberals are conservative. But it’s not the definition. Which is what you seem to be implying it is with phrases like “by nature”.
Today, we live in a liberal hegemony. So liberals are conservative. At the time of the French revolution, liberals were fighting against absolute monarchy, and were extremely progressive as a result. If we were living under socialism, liberals would be radicals.
Could not have said it better. Lemmy is slowly turning into Reddit lately with dumb takes and the hive mind just upvotes.
As people would say, context is king. So it depends. The OG liberals were anti-status quo and open to radical changes. But now since liberalism has become the status quo, liberals are now the conservatives and some prefer moderated approach, which unfortunately enables fascism. But even so, some liberals still believe in radical changes if push comes to shove.
I’m just not really sure what point you’re trying to make. Why are you bringing up people who have been dead for hundreds of years? Their context was so radically different than anything we have ever or will ever experience that their liberalism is a fundamentally different movement than the liberalism of today.
Yes, but read the last part of my comment. There are still some liberals today who would not be considered conservative. They still believe in liberal democracy, individual freedom and open to revolution if it comes to it, but they are skeptical of economic liberalism. So yes, context still matters, which transcends time and space.
If someone is open to the idea of replacing liberal democracy with a different system, that is them being open to not being a liberal. If they want to replace out current system with an extremely similar system with the hope that it won’t turn out like this again, that’s still conservative at its core.