You can’t be empirical if the data is suspect, and all data is suspect. So you put your faith in your senses. It’s not like you have much other choice, since that’s all you’ve got, but putting your blind faith in it is still taking that leap of faith, even if it’s a more sensible one than believing it’s demons or whatever.

It’s because of historians you those things about Cleopatra

So if you don’t completely trust your senses, then you, in the end, agree with Mickey. Donald is freaking out because his viewpoint is that of total materialism and that everything has no value.

Mickey points out that you cannot completely trust your senses and the information we get from those senses, so being upset over an intrinsically worthless universe is basing everything on that fallacy.

You’ve been implying, and thus pretty easy to assume, that this implies the spiritual, what with starting this off saying that Occam’s razor beats Plato’s cave, but the allegory of the cave isn’t saying gods or spirits are making your perceived reality. It’s just saying the thing you already agree with, that you can’t completely trust your senses.

So if you don’t completely trust your senses, and you understand that your perception of reality is based on those senses, you should now understand what the allegory of the cave is about.

QED

Is it not equally insane to completely trust your senses? We know how they can be tricked fairly easily. Like I said before, that’s one of the reasons why real science always has the caveat of “as far as we know”, unwritten at the end of every discovery.

At the end of the day, you don’t know, for sure, with 100% certainty, that you’re not a brain in a jar. Or more statistically likely, a brain popping into existence after the universe ended and then popping out again. (An actual scientific theory backed up by the math which is wild). You simply don’t. All of your existence could be a lie. You just have to make the best guess you can with what info you’ve got and hope you’re correct. Science is very, very good at guessing within the parameters of the information we can observe, but it’s always assuming what we are observing is true.

It’s like, you’re, idk, sitting in a cave, and like, you’re watching these shadows on this wall. You can’t turn around and look at what is making these shadows, so you’re doing your best at guessing, like, what the heck is actually making these shadows. Something like that.

Heh, for someone who has a poor view of philosophy you sure do subscribe to it a lot.

You’re fine with making an assumption, and that’s ok, that’s part of your philosophy.

And I’m saying that not questioning your senses is unscientific. Questioning our observations, and retesting them, is the very foundation of scientific thinking.

As for living in a purely material universe, how exactly would you test for something immaterial using material means? Would it look like weird unknown forces we can’t explain or the results of tests looking different depending on if it’s being observed or not?

And also are we going to throw out human experience? Are we not part of the universe? So would not the immaterial things we imagine into existence also exist?

Numbers aren’t material but we treat them as real, and use them to study material things to understand them.

But you’re assuming, from what I’m reading through your comments, that these shadows are cast by metaphysical forces, and I’m interpreting the allegory as how our senses are ultimately something we can’t trust completely.

As accurate as science may seem, it is ultimately based on these senses. It’s the best way we can understand the physical world, but science, wisely, always has a caveat at the end of every law and discovery: “… As far as we know.”

This is a good thing, it means that nothing is held sacred and everything can be tested and questioned again.

Now I’m not sure you get what the allegory of the cave is about. It’s literally trying to explain that our perception can’t be 100% trusted.

I think one of the points Mickey would make is you can’t entirely trust the scientific framework because it’s still coming from our flawed senses. Even if everything adds up, it could still be a lie. Solipsism and all that.

I don’t think anyone is talking about metaphysical idealism, but conceptual things shouldn’t be written off because they are inconvenient. Numbers aren’t physical, but I doubt you’d say they don’t exist and therefore should be ignored, unless you’re the most extreme materialist.

Occam’s razor is a rule of thumb not an absolute rule of the universe.

If you go with Cogito Ergo Sum, I think that’s the stance Mickey is taking. You only know for sure of your own consciousness, everything else could be a delusion of the senses. You know, like shadows on a cave wall or whatever.

I say fuck it. Ban it all. If you can’t be bothered to crudely draw a knockoff meme in paint like the rest of us you don’t deserve to post anything. Saying that you will get rid of low quality ai is saying you’re going to get rid of all of it anyway.

That is irrelevant to my point, however true it may be

So you admit that those cultural aspects are actually there. Which are failed when they are used to support the ruling class.

Which was my point.

Something something ugly black spot idk

Yeah dawg that’s my point. We have the ideal of equality but also failed to actually follow through with it.

I’m talking about the shared cultural values of the society we have today, views shared by most Americans. Most Americans like free speech. Most Americans like liberty. Et cetera and so on. These are things that are part of our culture. You aren’t any less of a person for recognizing that these are values that are held by this culture.

I am also saying that despite culturally sharing in these values, our society also fails to actually support them in very big ways.

Nah man, Americans have values. Freedom, perseverance, independence, self expression. It’s just that we have utterly failed to uphold those values in our actions. Even in the beginning, talking about slavery being terrible but still allowing it for political reasons right at the founding.

Nah, I liked how I phrased it. We’ve been failing to uphold our ideals since the beginning, even Thomas Jefferson was a hypocrite who hated slavery but sure as hell did a lot of it.

I feel like it’s unamerican in regards to the values our country espouses, even though it completely and utterly fails to uphold them.

Ok these are genuinely funny ngl