They might actually just care about the moral issues involved (or at least be worried enough about pushback to fake it).

They’re going to make a river of money regardless, and so maybe it’s not worth taking a reputational hit or risking some kind of legislation, just to preserve the 0.00000001% of their revenue stream that is deepfake porn based.

Grok responded to X users’ questions about public figures by generating foul and violent rape fantasies, including one targeting progressive activist and policy analyst Will Stancil. (Stancil has indicated he may sue X.)

When you fine-tune a coding AI on code that has deliberate flaws in it, and then switch it back to having conversations in English, it starts praising Hitler and constructing other deliberately hateful content. It wouldn’t surprise me if fine-tuning Grok to be Nazi also led it to “generalize” some additional things that weren’t intended by the operators.

And storing the source and such for every dependency would be bigger than, and result in the same thing as an image.

Let’s flip that around.

The insanity that would be downloading and storing everything you need, wrapping it all up into a massive tarball and then shipping it to anyone who wants to use the end product, and also by the way assuming that everything you need in order to rebuild it will always be available from every upstream source if you want to make any changes, is precisely what Docker does. And yes, it’s silly to trust that everything it’s referencing will always be available from whoever’s providing it.

(Also, security)

Docker is like installing onto an empty computer then shipping the entire machine to the end user.

Correct. Because it’s not capable enough to make actually-reproducible builds.

My point is, you can do that imaging (in a couple of different ways) with Nix, if you really wanted to. No one does, because it would be insane when you have other more effective tools that can accomplish the exact same goal without needing to ship the entire machine to the end user. There are good use cases for Docker, making it easy to scale services up as was the original intent is a really good one. The way people commonly use it today, as a way to make reproducible environments for ease of one-off deployment, is not one. In my opinion.

I’ve been tempted into a “my favorite technology is better” pissing match, I guess. Anyway, Nix is better.

The issue is, nix builds are only guaranteed to be reproducible if the dependencies don’t change.

Dude, this is exactly why Nix is better. Docker builds are only guaranteed to be reproducible if the dependencies don’t change. Which they will. The vast majority of real-world Dockerfiles do pip install, wget, all kinds of basically unlimited nonsense to pull down their dependencies from anywhere on the internet.

Nix builds, on the other hand, are forbidden from the internet, specifically to force them to declare dependencies explicitly and have it within a managed system. You can trust that the Nix repositories aren’t going to change (or store them yourself, along with all the source that generated them and will actually produce the same binaries, if you’re paranoid). You can send the flake.nix and flake.lock files and it will actually work to reproduce a basically byte-identical container on the receiver’s end, which means you don’t have to send multi-gigabyte “images” in order to be able to depend on the recipient actually being able to make use of it. This is what I was saying that the whole thing of needing “images” is a non-issue if your workflow isn’t allowing arbitrary fuckery on an industrial scale whenever you are trying to spin up a new container.

I suspect that making a new container and populating it with something useful is so trivial on Nix, that you’re missing the point of what is actually happening, whereas with Docker you can tell something big is happening because it’s such a fandango when it happens. And so you assume Docker is “real” and Nix is “fake” or something.

I like one a package to be independent

Yes, me too, which is why an affinity for Docker is weird to me.

Yes because that is a wrong and clunky way to do it lol.

If you really wanted to, you could use dockerTools.BuildImage to create an “imaged” version of the container you made, or you could send around the flake.nix and flake.lock files exactly as someone would send around Dockerfiles. That stuff is usually just not necessary though, because it’s replaced with just a better approach (for the average-end-user case where you don’t need large numbers of Docker containers that you can deploy quickly at scale) that accomplishes the same thing.

I feel like I’m not going to convince you of this though. Have fun with Docker, I guess.

Hold up, nix added containerization? How did I miss that? I will have another look now!

Nix is containerization. Here is firing up a temporary little container with a new python version and then throwing it away once I’m done with it (although you can also do this with more complicated setups, this is just showing doing it with one thing only):

[hap@glimmer:/proc/69235/fd]$ python --version
Python 3.12.8

[hap@glimmer:/proc/69235/fd]$ nix-shell -p python39
this path will be fetched (27.46 MiB download, 80.28 MiB unpacked):
  /nix/store/jrq27pp6plnpx0iyvr04f4apghwc57sz-python3-3.9.21
copying path '/nix/store/jrq27pp6plnpx0iyvr04f4apghwc57sz-python3-3.9.21' from 'https://cache.nixos.org/'...

[nix-shell:~]$ python --version
Python 3.9.21

[nix-shell:~]$ exit
exit

[hap@glimmer:/proc/69235/fd]$ python --version
Python 3.12.8

The whole “system” you get when moving from Nix to NixOS is basically just a composition of a whole bunch of individual packages like python39 was, in one big container that is “the system.” But you can also fire up temporary containers trivially for particular things. I have a couple of tools with source in ~/src which, whenever I change the source, nix-os rebuild will automatically fire up a little container to rebuild them in (with their build dependencies which don’t have to be around cluttering up my main system). If it works, it’ll deploy the completed product into my main system image for me, but if it doesn’t then nothing will have changed (and either way it throws away the container it used to attempt the build in).

Each config change spawns a new container for the main system OS image (“generation”), but you can roll back to one of the earlier generations (which are, from a functional perspective, still around) if you want or if you broke something.

And so on. It’s very nice.

I mean if it makes you happy, I won’t tell you to do anything different. I think a certain amount of it is just prejudice against Docker on my part. Just in my experience NixOS is the best of both worlds: You can have a single coherent system if everything in that system can play nice with each other, and if not, then things can be containerized completely that way still works too. And then on top it has a couple of other nice features like rolling back configs easily, or source builds that get slotted in in-place as if they were standard packages (which is generally where I abandon Docker installs of things, because making changes to the source seems like it’s going to be a big hassle).

I’m not trying to evangelize though, you should in all seriousness just do what you find to be effective.

Yeah, I can agree with that, I’m just saying at the moment of shutdown isn’t the time to do that and often the programs that are holding up my shutdown are doing it for reasons of their own, not because they’re trying to help me by saving my work. Just do autosave and let me shut my stuff down.

Huh.

IDK man, my experience is that Nix solves the problem you originally talked about and a bunch of others, pretty effectively. Among other things if things “just… don’t work” you can trivially roll back to an earlier working config, and see what changed between working and not-working, and so what would be a pretty grueling debugging process in some other environment becomes pretty easy to sort out.

But whatever. If for some reason Docker makes you more happy and not less, you’re welcome to it and best of luck.

What didn’t you like about it? I am just curious; I finally stepped out of using Debian for everything which I have been doing for approximately 200 years, and tried NixOS, and to me it is incredibly nice the way it solves a lot of these issues.

venv or nix

These are 2014 problems

My laptop will send a signal to all programs telling them to shut down, which includes cleaning up their stuff, and then it unmounts the drives, and then it shuts down. It just doesn’t wait forever and make me fix the problem if some program is having trouble shutting down. That is the correct behavior.

I do get that it’s nice to be protected against having your work blown away. As a first step, the idea of checking with every program to make sure it’s okay to turn off was a good progress, back in the past when it was first invented. The solution in the present day to that is autosave. The solution is definitely not to leave all the user’s work unsaved for a potentially unlimited amount of time, and then refuse to shut down if there is any terminal that still has an ssh session open, any settings window still open, or any GIMP session with files exported but not saved as .xcf.

Literally 2/3 of those obstacles happen pretty much every time I shut down my Mac, and I have to wander through the programs resolving programs’ problems that have nothing to do with saving my work. It’s annoying. I do understand that, with the other way, you have to go around checking that you have no work unsaved before shutting down. But, if you are mature enough to do that, then the “init 0” way is objectively better.

2025 no autosave skill issue

I just flip through all the workspaces, make sure there’s nothing going on I care about, and then hit the button.

Computers that teach you not to do that, but instead to just blindly pick “shut down” and then assume that the computer will protect you against having anything unsaved, but also refuse to shut down if there’s some app this is not cooperating, have 0 upside compared to the other way.

2. When I hit the power button, it turns off. It still does its shutdown and all, but it’s not an extended negotiation where I find a bunch of programs that are refusing to “let me” do what I want the computer to do, and have to try to make each of them happy. It just turns off.

Yes, demesisx and demeaning_casually are two alts of the same person. There were some others as well, I think they’ve all been banned at this point. They did the standard Lemmy bad-faith-person behavior of being hostile and obviously dishonest with the admin when the admin went to talk with them about it, at that point without the intention of banning them I don’t think. For as unsuccessful a behavior as that is, it’s pretty popular, I’ve dealt with it multiple times. I think the admin was able to find some more detailed information about it than I was, they caught a bunch of different alts.

The timestamps come from the time that votes get federated, which is often in batches a little bit after they were posted on the origin server. They’re not reliable to the second. If I remember right you’ll see batches of votes even from legitimate users come in all at the same time or within seconds if they’re all on the same instance, and also there tends to be a reliable 30-second cycle on which they all get sent out in those batches. If you look on a scale of minutes, and there tend to be bunched-up votes from apparently different accounts that all are taking the same types of actions, that’s more of a reliable sign of fuckery.

Yeah. In retrospect, it’s easy to pick out what stuff is just Elon Musk making up bullshit because it would be awesome. And, with the cybertruck, he finally got to inject that into the engineering process as a dominant factor as he’d been trying to do for so long with the cars. And look at the result…

Back before people knew all that much about it, back when Elon Musk was the guy who made Tesla and SpaceX and this super smart guy (as opposed to being the guy who bought them and then fucked up the engineering), I knew some people who were excited about it. It was supposed to be a working truck but electric, bring all the better-than-other-cars stuff that the Roadster and Model S had, it was supposed to have solar panels and electrical outlets and super-strong construction so you could use it to survive the zombie apocalypse.

I think that was before the inflection point, back when the genuine success Tesla had had made Musk’s personal brand of bullshit believable. I remember when people started getting a good look at all the concept and actual prototypes, that made it look like a dumpster without the storage space, was when the shine came off the rose. But I definitely do remember people who were excited about it back in the beginning.

I mean, we’ll never know now. And yes, Trump is worse.

I’m not going to have a conversation with you where I explain why, as bad as Biden and every other president has been, Trump is a meaningful change. I’ve talked about it already twice today and it is too grim. Look in my history if you want to see.