Mystic Mushroom [Ze/Zir]

You sound like a troll, for the record I didn’t distinguish between large companies, I said that pro-copyright sentiment and anti-piracy arguments of any kind are modern “think of the children” arguments. All pro-copyright sentiment, no discrimination here. The fact that you’re trying to put words in my mouth proves you aren’t and never were arguing in good faith.

I’m only describing it as moral panic because in the vast majority of the argument people have talking about copyright and “Art theft” they are framing their position as a moral high ground. I really don’t think there is one either. People are going to do what they do. They can use freely available creative commons materials, or they can pirate the good stuff. One isn’t better than the others.

Ultimately when it comes to an AI like OpenAI, I couldn’t care less if they source and license the data responsibly, use Free to use material, or engage in piracy. They can fuck themselves any way they do it. Because an AI company like that is going to screw us over in the long run. No matter how nice they play.

Your argument about pirating indie music or games does seem to be a common one, and I would agree if it weren’t for one big part. Most pirates do buy when they can. I certainly do. There are things I pirate I would never buy and there are even things I would never pirate. But games I pirated and liked, especially indie games I’ve bought. Music and Art is a trickier subject because people these days mostly stream and view online, though if we’re going to compare to art commission I would argue that a person who would commission a piece of art would probably still do it, but on the flip side someone who wouldn’t, just wouldn’t. Regardless if AI is available to do it or not.

Spoken like someone who hasn’t created art great enough that they want their name on it.

Willing to bet that you along with the majority of the morally outraged people on this subject who are whining haven’t either. They’re usually at it for the same reasons people whine about piracy do what they do and simp for IP holders.

So who are these people crediting when the image they asked to be generated is using art that isn’t credited?

They aren’t crediting anyone or taking credit, same as pirating content. Just like how we don’t go out of our way to give credit to the people who pirated the content or the people who made the film.

copys identifiable techniques and prose.

I am not going to even indulge the idea of this of owning style or technique, I’ve seen some really toxic ideas around trying to own style, traits, or even a fictional species and this is downright petty, and one of the most extreme forms of gatekeeping in that space yet. It’s also so low that it’s not even protected by copyright but even if it were I’d respect it less than I do more concrete forms of intellectual property.

Hating all AI universally is a bit silly though, especially models like AlphaFold, which have saved lots of lives with the work it and its creators have done.

I’m glad we’re in agreement about this. I don’t like corporate AI like openAI or Anthropic because they are corporate monsters who only desire money and power, and who ultimately will screw us over in the end.

I don’t agree entirely though with the idea about copyright respect and all that jazz as I’m a pirate through and through and pirating training data to train a local AI is no different to me than pirating movies, TV, or Music. I don’t have a lot of sympathy for pro-copyright sentiment due to the fact that it’s really fake ownership of physical ideas, and gatekeeping who can access them. Copyrights aren’t owned the way you can own pants, piracy doesn’t steal from you and I refuse to call copyright piracy theft.

AIs really should be open-source and self-hostable, if the Replika incident taught me anything it’s that something like this should be in your control, they will screw you over for money otherwise. Whether you get permission or pirate the material is really up to you honestly.

It’s not worth creating your own art if an AI is just going to rip your style and take credit the second you post it.

This is almost verbatim the same argument they use against piracy saying if people can pirate “no one buys any disks from the store” - DP (Don’t copy that Floppy). And it’s wrong. I use AI the same way I use piracy, and I do appreciate real art. Which is why I say that the anti-AI arguments I see floating around are bullshit, you don’t know people who use it, you’re regurgitating ideas and talking points that don’t apply evenly to all people, just like anti-piracy propaganda does.

I’m not taking credit for it, maybe some people do, but it’s a strawman argument to say everyone does. I see AI generation as another form of piracy.

I wouldn’t have as much of a problem with it if every artist agreed for their works to be used, but these bots just scraped the open internet and took everything they could find and that’s the training data.

Like I said, same thing as piracy. The arguments against piracy fall onto deaf ears, and I don’t respect them. Because Copyright, especially broken long copyright like what the US has is killing our culture. I don’t respect it and will not honor it. People who make a moral panic about forms of piracy are basically screaming “Think of the children” as far as I’m concerned.

I’m not really arguing against that, or trying to say that AI is any less or more creative. I’m saying that the moral panic of “copyright infringement” AKA “art theft” is stupid to me because it’s based on the made up idea that people own the physical analog of an idea the same way I can own a laptop or a car. Piracy isn’t stealing, and it never has been. Piracy’s moral panic is based on the idea of me not buying something because I was able to pirate it. Here’s the thing though. I’m not going to buy it anyway, if you think I will you don’t know me.

Someone could say that I’m bad because I used AI to generate my pfp, but I wouldn’t have commissioned an artist to draw it for me. I would’ve just taken it for free somewhere else whether it was a legal source like freely licensed or a screen-rip from an anime. If there wasn’t anywhere else I just wouldn’t have a pfp. Piracy isn’t stealing, the amount of pirates who would buy anyway is lower than any anti-piracy advocates would like you to believe. And I do believe the same is true here for the most part.

There’s muddyness when it comes to commercial AI and I don’t like big tech commercial AI since they are sleazy and scamming people, but also because they will happily cut us all off and make us pay. I do not think OpenAI or Ahthropic are good companies or doing good things for our world. I just don’t believe the standard Anti-AI rhetoric that it’s bad because of copyright infringement. I’ve pirated movies in the past, even when it was shitty and low quality. This isn’t much different to me, yeah it’s not as good as the real thing, I don’t deny that. Same with AI, AI images are like those pirated movies, lower quality, maybe shaky, real art is something else.

I think framing copyright piracy as a moral panic is sleazy and wrong, just as I believe that anti-piracy campaigns which seek to scare and demonize people who pirate music or movies are wrong. I cannot support this rhetoric in good faith, this is the modern day equivalent of “think of the children” for enforcing fake ownership of something that can’t be really owned.

First and last ones are only true for big corporate models. The second one is subjective whether you believe in copyright policing. I don’t, but I’m pro-piracy and believe that IP gatekeeping is harmful to our culture at large. I’ve seen both how ruthless IP holders can be, and I’ve also seen how lazy they are at rehashing the same ideas over and over (why movie studios and authors reuse the same plots, stories, or remake the same content over and over and over again). I don’t agree with this.

The first one and last one are big problems, but are easily solved by using Open source software (that things that everyone forgets exists) and self-hosting yourself, I can use my own GPU to run an instance of AIhorde software for nothing more than what it takes to play a video game.

Edit: It should be allowed just for the reason that people don’t need the excuse to act out. I can’t state an opinion without them feeling like they need to downvote to punish me.

People should be banned or punished for acting out regardless of if it’s banned or not, them being allowed to just act out makes the space tribalist and hostile. It makes people (especially neurodivergent people) feel unwelcome. Which as an inclusive community which has many vulnerable people is the opposite of what we want. @will_steal_your_username@lemmy.blahaj.zone Please take note of this because I think the safety aspect here is something that is seriously overlooked. No one wants to come into a community and be yelled at because someone thought their art was AI, people who do that should be banned on the spot whether we allow or ban AI itself.

I don’t agree with this. Copyright and Intellectual property arguments like this are the modern day equivalent of “Think of the children” but with IP holders instead of children. I’m an avid believer in piracy and information access and this sounds like pro-copyright dogma to me.

What I think is a better solution is to have open-source and self-hostable models like AIhorde which aren’t corporate in nature and don’t make money. They are open-source projects that anyone can run or contribute to. But screw copyright and screw IP gatekeeping, I’m not going to justify or rationalize this with what are ultimately the same slippery slope arguments used against piracy

Personally I feel like AI should be allowed if the memes and content are high quality and that they aren’t being spammed rapidly.

What I do think should be done regardless of the outcome to ban AI or not is heavy policing on anti-AI harassment, trolling, witch-hunting, and bad faith arguments. I was just harassed by an idiot and still haven’t fully recovered but this shit is unacceptable. So if we ban AI or not we need to ban the idiots trolling and trying to hunt down people they suspect of using AI. These people are toxic to the community and will hurt the community more than even low-effort AI spam will. I’m not going to provide names of people because they will accuse me of harassing them and probably harass me in return (just like the idiot earlier).

I agree, I fear that we’re going to see a lot of gaslighting and accusations of AI generated content if we try this route. I’ve already seen this happening with people accusing others of AI generated text and it’s shitty. I can recognize the risk of people being shitty and evil and I think that’s something that needs to be fought against directly, not enabled by just yelling “AI bAD” and leaning into Ad-hominem and personal attacks.