Valuing children only for the monetary value they will contribute is a very good way of producing unhappy children which in my view is pretty immoral. It’s also pretty close to viewing humans as capital and that’s problematic in it’s own right

Sleeping in your car in public is not allowed in Germany either

Unrelated and I don’t know if the mod will see this but thanks for your doing the work you do!

I knew who bugsy is before seeing the picture. I feel like I either should delve deeper into the fediverse or take a break. On the plus side of the fediverse is definitely bugsy. Hello bugsy.

you think they should be included in the LGBTQ+ group,

Honestly I don’t think I have any authority to speak on whether anyone should or shouldn’t be included in LGBTQ+. I just think they face a lot of the same struggles that people in the LGTBQ+ group experience. So I wouldn’t be surprised if they were included in the future.

and I promise that will cause more harm than good.

Could you expand on that?

I mean I kinda would like you to do the same, because you keep misunderstanding me, and it looks more and more like you’re doing it on purpose

I am sorry if this is the impression I am giving you, I promise that is not what is happening here.

Wth are you going on about “preemptive capital punishment” ?I

I am very sorry that was completely wrong. I meant collective punishment. I’ll edit the comment above accordingly. Obviously you never called for captial punishment.

as you should not accept psychopaths until they are under treatment

I would actually disagree with that too. You need to take some care when you interact with them but “not accepting” or “social rejection” is far over the line in my opinion. The people having to deal with this are the ones that can decide how they deal with it unless they have become dangerous to others. And no, just because some have become dangerous does not mean all of them are dangerous.

Saying they face similar issues is not helping, because those issues are for completely different reasons. Some are legitimate, other aren’t.

I disagree with this too. For examples I don’t think discriminating against people that are pedophiles in the jobmarket is better than discriminating against any other minority.

Until they do… It’s not because they never acted on it that they will never.

That’s just preemptive capital (wrong word, my bad! I’ll leave it so the comment below still makes sense) collective punishment. If you want to support that I can’t stop you but I won’t agree with it.

And I’m pretty sure that if you start to accept pedophilia as “just another minority”, pedophiles all around the world will feel more legitimate and act on it becauce hey it’s normal now.

Again, noone is advocating for normalising acting on it. Conflating treating pedophiles as humans with a unique struggle with supporting them raping children is not helpful to the discussion.

PLUS if you merge them to LGBTQ for instance, it allows more hate towards LGBTQ because people fear (for a good reason) pedophilia. It already is their main argument, with grooming etc. It’s always the children.

That is a legitimate concern, insofar as it is a tactical concern for the movement. That does not speak towards the logic of things, as it is only about optics. The opposition lies about the LGBTQ movement, and therefore you want to separate the movement from that minority. This might be valid as a strategy for the movement but it does not mean that pedophiles don’t have very similar struggels as other minorities in LGBTQ.

As a parent, pedophilia is a real concern, and you merging it with homosexuality just make me really angry.

Again, I am not saying the two are the same. I am saying that people of both groups face similar issues.

There are actual treatments (for reducing libido for instance, like antiandrogens, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors), group therapies, etc. that seems to help :

They won’t stop you from being a pedophile or cure you. Both help you manage your urges. And I agree that people who struggle with pedophilia should look into these options if they feel they are not able to manage it on their own.

I agree that I’m a little confused about how it should be approached, because it should be a initiative from the pedophiles and not mandated, but I still think it should be done for every pedophiles.

I think this is in part fueled by a (very much understandable!) fear for your children. I would ask you to take a step back and ask yourself if you are being completely rational about this issue.

That’s harmful, because there is one big difference : one harms others, the other doesn’t.

Pedophiles SHOULD fear social rejection, because pedophilia is harmful to society

This is the core of our disagreement. Pedophilia itself does not harm anyone but the one having to deal with it. Representing pedophiles as a threat to society judges many for the actions of a few. The individuals did not do anything wrong, and they do not deserve rejection for what they are.

pedophiles should try to not be pedophiles anymore

This sentiment is, and I am sorry that you don’t like the comparison, the same that people had towards homosexuals for a long time. I am not saying that homosecuality and pedophilia are the same. I am saying the people in both groups face very similar challenges. As far as I know “just not being a pedophile” is not possible for an actual pedophile. The only result you’ll get with that is that people hide in a closet, without getting the help that they could use.

And I don’t see how one would even think it’s unecessary to make people undergo psychological treatment for something as harmful as pedophilia.

The simple fact that I don’t know that there is a treatment that actually cures pedophilia.

They need help, they need at the minimum psychological support.

This is not the same as “make people undergo psychological treatment”.

Of course you can’t force people to go through that

Well which is it, “make people undergo psychological treatment” or " you can’t force people to go through that". You’ve got to pick a line here.

but please don’t compare this to anti homosexual treatments, it is not the same.

You’ve been pretty vague as to what you want to “make” them do or “not force” them to do or what help you want to get them. Though your sentiment towards pedophilia is similar to what spawend the hellhole of homosexual conversion therapies so please forgive my assumption that you would go into this direction as well.

I don’t know enough either. But for me this means I don’t want not err on the side of unnecessarly making people go through psychological treatment or even medical procedures. That’s what we have done to homosexuals and transgender people for decades and now most people agree that that was nonsense and actually pretty cruel. The affected themselves can choose to do any of these but they shouldn’t be pressured and certainly not forced to do any of it.

But putting them in the minority group like if they were lgbtqia for exemple, is only going to harm minorities and allow more pedophiles to feel legitimate in their urges, and maybe act on it.

I don’t think that’s true. Firstly, and it’s just a technicality, they are by definition a minority. But more importantly: Afaik they face a lot of the same challenges other minorities face. Fear of rejection in social groups, discrimination in the workplace, being forced to always be concious of hiding one aspect of yourself. Empathizing with that does not mean legitimating their urges, which is the main thing differentiating them from most other minorities. And I get that that makes it hard to empathize with them.

I also don’t think socially outcasting peoples urges is as effective as people think. Just look at the scandals in the churches that have been uncovered in the last few years. It just means that people hide their urges, never learn how to really deal with them, and then turn into predators because of it.

Yes pedophiles acting on their urges are criminals, of the worst kind. Pedophiles that manage their urges should be treated like anyone else. They also deserve representation so that they can find the support they need. Just shoving them in a closet won’t help anybody.

Is it because society decided that they need to be treated with disgust because of something they don’t have control over, something they were born with, who they are?

even they don’t use violence

I really don’t know why you keep bringing this strawman up. It is not what my point is about.

for everybody wanting to do more serious work.

The serious work alone will not convince the people either. The loud protests give a voice to the results of the serious work that would otherwise stay unheard.

seems like excuse for violence too me

Just because some form of argument can be used to try and justify violence does not mean it is a bad argument.

and how people talk now it has impact

It does, but it doesn’t seem to be enough.

but crazy people lessen that impact.

This has been thrown around as some kind of fact for a long time, especially with the protests of the “Letzte Generation” in germany, a specifically non-violent protest group, that blockaded highways. I have never seen convincing data that this protest has affected the populations position on climate policy. There was broad disagreement with their form of protest and the two get mixed up in discussions a lot.

The problem is probably supply. Why would anyone outside of russia sell you bitcoins for rubel? So this works a kind of pump system until no more crypto is left with people who have a use for rubel, which will make money transfers very expensive because the prices for crypto in rubel would surge compared to the prices in other currencies

I guess, but you have to acknowledge that the protesters are also just humans. And what happens when humans get frustrated without the believable prospect of change through civil means?

I don’t really understand how people could argue that it’s not important how you package your message.

I think most people are done packaging the message because many ways of packaging this message have been tried and been ignored.

“using your words” only means something if your words bear impact. To the governments the words of people amd companies profiting off of fossile fuels bear weight because they control a lot of value and employment. They can threaten damage while staying “civil”. People that do not have that kind of impact in their words can lend their words impact by becoming less “civil”.

God I hate that the AfD is getting more and more attention internationally. I get why but damn I hate it.

Internet protocols are better in so many ways

This is VERY debatable because statements that broad are almost always false. There is no need to have a cellular->IP->cellular bridge for 1:1 communication involving more servers, more service providers. If anyone wanted to they could implement at least the 1:1 signal protocol and probably even the messaging layer security protocol on top of SMS to get e2ee group communications.

Nobody wants to because cell providers sell SMS for horrendous prices compared to internet access.

I mean to be honest to only reason to use messengers is just costs, I wish SMS where as cheap as internet flatrates… But that might very well be a regional issue too